Speaker A:
Hello and welcome to Live Like the World Is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I’m your host today, Inman Narowin, and today we have part 2 of a really awesome interview that I did with my friend Dominique about nursing, nursing unions, and the state of healthcare. If you haven’t listened to part 1, go check out part 1. And I think part 2 is just awesome. And we’re about to talk about unions and striking and why it’s important to do that. But before we get to that, we’re a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts. And here’s a jingle from another show on the network.
Speaker B:
The State Between Us is a damn near weekly show on the wacky weirdos and long loony lore base of our ruling class, their state keeping us apart, and efforts around the world to bring us back together. Wanna know about the nasty Nazis behind the conservative movement? patreon.com/thestatebetweenus. The centuries of resistance against our common foes? Just how terrible fascist fanfic can get? That’s all on patreon.com/thestatebetweenus, a member of the Channel Zero Network.
Speaker C:
I was 14 years old in 1994. Kurt Cobain had just died, and not one of us believed it was suicide. A grunge girl moved from the city to the house next door on my country road, and she had the right flannel, the right jeans, and a Mudhoney shirt. I’d never even heard of Mudhoney, but I was sure they were about to become my new favorite band. She was a year older than me. She never smiled. She never brushed her hair. And she was perfect in every way, assuming she liked girls. When we rode our bikes up the overgrown road to the Devil’s Shack and we passed that rusted-out little water tower with the old gold spray paint that says, the devil lives here, I started saying, devil take you, under my breath. Everyone knows if you say it 100 times in less than a minute, the devil will do it. He’ll take whoever you’re thinking about. I didn’t even get to 40, though, because I’m not a monster. Nothing that happened was my fault.
Speaker A:
This month on the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness podcast, we have The Devil Lives Here by Margaret Kiljoy, a short story about a weird shack in the woods that some teenagers hang out at. We also have a really fun interview with Margaret about being a teenager and all the weird shit you do in your adolescence. The word of the month is Weirdly contrary to popular Halloween eerie time, uh, times, about dispossession. Read and listen along at tangledwilderness.org or wherever you get podcasts.
Speaker D:
Hell! Oh, this is an ad for The Spectacle. It’s kind of a cultural analysis podcast, but also an anarchist podcast, but it’s listed in the comedy section of Apple Podcasts, so everything we say counts as parody. Nice try, J. Edgar Hoover. It’s for people who like low art and hate cops. Just a bunch of nasty freaks talking movies and shit because it’s a really grim time to be a radical. We just wanted to make something stupid. I’m on that Arm Joy shit. If I can’t do bits, it’s not my revolution. It’s fun! So come on by every so often and listen to The Spectacle, the only podcast that— it’s the, it’s the only podcast. There’s none left. There’s none left. There was an accident. And this is the only one now. The Spectacle from Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness on Channel Zero.
Speaker A:
Yeah. Yeah. So it’s like, I guess that this maybe sort of answers it, but it’s like, who is the sort of, I guess, antagonist for a nursing union? Mm-hmm. And how does whatever that is usually react to hospitals, nurses wanting to unionize or unions doing union stuff in the hospital? Yeah.
Speaker E:
Who are the antagonists for nursing unions? I think it’s ultimately the company themselves. And then that angst gets trickled down to our more direct managers and directors.
Speaker A:
Yeah. Because managers can’t be in unions, right?
Speaker E:
No. No. In this union in particular, no.
Speaker A:
Totally.
Speaker E:
I think that there are managers who exist who do support nurses’ unions, but they cannot be loud about it because they might get fired. And then there are some who really enjoy being that antagonist. And I don’t pretend to know or understand the psychology behind that. Yeah, there’s scripts there’s direction that they get on how to handle us when, you know, when say we’re turning in a petition or we are collectively or publicly shining light onto these safety issues. Yeah, I can’t deep dive into their psyche. I just know that whether they truly believe that we are wrong or we’re a nuisance or whatever, Or if they’re just trying to tell us to stop because they’ve been told to tell us to stop. You know, I don’t know.
Speaker A:
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess, like, how does that tension kind of play out? Like, what if a hospital isn’t unionized? Can people get fired for trying to unionize it?
Speaker E:
Right now, in a right-to-work state, you can get fired for wearing the wrong color nail polish, and there’s no reason for an appeal or—
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
You know what I mean? So like being at will, you can get fired for anything.
Speaker A:
Yeah. And the point is that they don’t have to say because if they did say, oftentimes they’d probably be breaking some kind of discrimination law.
Speaker E:
Yeah. And so the firing for union organizing is obvious when it’s happening and they will say it’s not because of that.
Speaker A:
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker E:
Yeah, it’s kind of tricky. I think that a lot of people who are afraid of getting fired are people who aren’t super involved. And I guess the question that I ask others, because I ask myself this question, is, is the fear of getting disciplined or fired greater than the fear of hurting somebody accidentally or losing my license because I was in an impossible situation and made the wrong call under a frantic moment, you know?
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And I guess that whatever your answer is will kind of determine where you land in things. What are you really afraid of?
Speaker A:
Totally. Yeah. And I guess maybe this is a funny question. I’m gonna assume the answer is yes, but I don’t know. Do nursing unions, like, is part of, I guess, their aims to protect nurses from disciplinary reprisal, like getting their licenses taken away for things that are like really the hospital’s fault.
Speaker E:
Yeah, yeah. I’ve never seen that happen in my— Totally. Like the hospital going after a nurse’s license in my almost 10 years of being a nurse and 8 years of organizing. But I will say that there’s like a union paperwork that we fill out, and it’s not provided by the hospital at all. It’s like our paperwork.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And we fill it out whenever we see that we have like a really dangerous assignment, an unsafe assignment. And yeah, like maybe we’re on the floor and there’s somebody who actually maybe should be in the ICU because they’re really, really sick. Yeah. And they’re not in the ICU despite, you know, the nurse talking to the doctor and the doctor talking to the ICU doctor. And, you know, somebody made the call like this, they’re fine. So maybe if it’s a situation like that, or if you have maybe not 6 but 7 patients that night, or if you don’t have a tech because they called in sick, which they should be able to do, but then no replacement came, or if your charge nurse has got a full team of their own or there’s no transportation that night, like whatever the situation is, if you fill this paper out, it does protect your license. And part of it too is you have to tell your boss like, this is an unsafe assignment. What are you gonna do to help? Yeah. Are you coming in to help us? Are you putting it on the group chat that we need more nurses tonight?
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
I mean, people have filled these out and then kind of realized like, oh, they actually— before the shift started there, we did have more nurses and they told them not to come in because we are overstaffed. And then we became understaffed.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And now we don’t have anybody. You know what I mean? Like, it’s— yeah, it’s wild.
Speaker A:
It’s wild. And I feel like there’s this strange disparity too with like how hospitals probably spend money where it’s like And I’m like jamming together things that I hear my friends talk about, but like, I’ve heard friends talk about like the— I don’t know what they’re called— shift covering bonuses? Like escalatory shift covering bonuses? Sure. Where like a friend, like someone might get like an extra like $1,000 on top of whatever their rate is for like covering a shift. You know? And hospitals seem more than willing to do that.
Speaker E:
Yeah.
Speaker A:
But like completely unwilling to just have an extra person on.
Speaker E:
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A:
Even though like with bonuses like that, they’re probably like, that’s probably far more than that, than a nurse would make in that 12 hours.
Speaker E:
I ask myself, is it about the money?
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
The answer is yes. But is it about also Yeah,
Speaker A:
yeah.
Speaker E:
You know, they, they really— without a union, they have the power to staff however they want. And they, they feign this idea of accountability, but they make the ratios for each floor.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And if they are going outside of those parameters and giving a nurse— we’re on a unit that should have 3 to 1— if they’re giving them 4 to 1 or 5 to 1, there’s no consequence. There’s no accountability. There’s no, there’s no entity to say, hey, You can’t do that without— there’s no entity without a union. And then when a union comes, that’s us.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And so, yeah, a big part about having a ratio law is to create a standard. And then once we win it, we have to enforce it. And we have to call the state every time they go— they blow past the ratios. And then the big part of the law, a law’s existence like that, is it has to have a financial consequence. to the hospital every time they violate that law. The only language they speak is money and power. And so, yeah, I feel like there’s a— yeah, I don’t want to quote it exactly because I’ll mess it up. I think it’s a Stokely Carmichael quote talking about, you know, you can’t really appeal to somebody’s morality if they don’t have it.
Speaker A:
Yeah, yeah. But, and maybe this is me being a bit doomful about the, like, I feel like especially in leftist world, we have this like slogan about like, let it hit them where it matters to them, which is like their wallets. And I’m like, does it? Like, we’re dealing with entities that—
Speaker E:
It’s a deep wallet.
Speaker A:
Yeah, it’s a deep wallet. And it’s like, we’re dealing with entities like, I mean, a hospital conglomerate is like not the same thing as like, for instance, like the City of New York, you know? But it’s like, the City of New York just has in their budget, like environmental law violations.
Speaker E:
Yes, yes.
Speaker A:
It’s just budgeted in. And so it’s like, I imagine hospitals too.
Speaker E:
Do what we want, we’ll just pay for it. Yeah,
Speaker A:
they’ll just pay for it. And it’s like, if it’s really gonna hurt them, it’s like, I worry, which this isn’t me being like that we shouldn’t stick it to them. It’s like, not that at all. I just like wonder sometimes it’s like, will they bend or listen or will they just take something away entirely?
Speaker E:
I mean, for that, I think it comes back to what I was saying earlier, like some people keep their head down, some people do things and they fight on an individual level and then you can fight collectively.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And for that nurse that’s like, I’ll stick it to them by not saying yes at first to coming to cover the shift and I’m gonna wait until the money is higher.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And they’re more desperate and then I’ll say yes. And not only do I make that money, but then that’s more money out of their pocket, right?
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Like, I don’t know if you’re saying that this is the mentality, But I think that a more powerful message would be, we have all unionized. We are going on strike. We are withholding our labor, which will cost you millions of dollars unless you come to our demands.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And maybe part of those demands are, we want you to have an extra person so that we have some breathing room to loosen our belts if we have an influx of patients that we, we maybe weren’t anticipating. And that way we’re covered and we’re not desperate for nurses. You know, that, I mean, that is the other way to do it that I think is more effective and substantive.
Speaker A:
Yeah, yeah. It’s like, I think you said it earlier, it’s kind of like, it’s about power. It’s about having the power in the situation. It’s like, even if, it’s like one of those, like, even if the hospital admin was like, thought it was like a good idea to do something, I’m like, they’re probably just, Wouldn’t do it just to retain their power. And that’s so many power structures is like, it’s like, you know, this would be better and it doesn’t cost you anything. And it’s about, it’s about the power.
Speaker E:
Yeah.
Speaker A:
Holding on to it.
Speaker E:
Just thinking about California because, you know, that’s the strongest state with this, with the strongest union. And that’s their union is part of our union. They like expanded about 15, 20 years ago to other parts of the country, and that’s how we unionized. So we’re a part of— we’re a part of them. But, um, when they won that law, like, like I said, like nurses flocked to California to work. So they— nursing shortage gone.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
They saved money in the long run because patients weren’t, um, you know, they weren’t dealing with all of the chaos with like missing something, uh, the staff missing something with regards to their care. People didn’t code as much in the hospital setting, or like, you know, code blue, their heart stops, they have to be resuscitated and all that. Because if you have enough eyes on a situation, you can catch that before it gets to that point.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
People didn’t, there were less readmissions after, before 30 days. You know, if you don’t do a great job while they’re in the hospital, there’s a real risk that they could just turn around and come right back. But if you do a good job with them there, then they don’t, come back as frequently, which is a good thing.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And then obviously the mortality is lower, which I don’t need to really expand on that. That’s just a good thing.
Speaker A:
It’s just great.
Speaker E:
It’s just a good thing. Um, and so yeah, overall it is about money, but more than anything, it’s about power.
Speaker A:
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker E:
And that’s just capitalism for you.
Speaker A:
That’s just capitalism. Um, we are about out of time, um, which is unfortunate because I feel like We could talk about this for a very long time. But I’m wondering if there’s any kind of last things that you want to talk about that we didn’t talk about as it relates to any of this. And then separately from that, I would love to hear any advice that you have for nurses who aren’t in unions or hospitals that have no nursing union presence. Like, what should people do?
Speaker E:
Yeah, I think the thing that I will say is that one thing that I’m really proud of with this particular union is that we have taken a lot of very strong public stances with regards to, like, if an issue is talking about human life and valuing human life, we’re gonna take a stand on it. So we’re very much abolish ICE.
Speaker A:
Mm-hmm.
Speaker E:
We’re very much like any AI that is, you know, working with ICE or entities that are harmful to people. Like, we don’t want that. Data centers’ existence is a public health issue because of the way that it uses water and electricity. You know, we talk about workplace violence a lot. We talk about being just simply anti-authoritarian, anti-fascist. Like, that’s the only conscionable way to look at where we are in society right now. We talk about all kinds of things. I feel like, and I think Medicare for All is huge, huge. I mean, we can’t, there’s a number of things that are systemic that maybe we can try and fix and alter, but in terms of this healthcare system that we have with insurance and, you know, like medications costing so much and like there is just such a confusing, bad system that’s so expensive, we should just have Medicare for All, really.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Really.
Speaker A:
It’s like they want people to be in debt.
Speaker E:
It’s a very bad system. Yeah. And there’s an answer to it. And so I’m very proud of those things that we are standing behind. And one thing that I love about union work is it kind of gets me out of my leftist bubble. I’m working alongside people who think of themselves as apolitical, who kind of like maybe vote in a more centrist way. I’m working alongside people who are MAGA. And I think that for a lot of folks, it’s like, oh God, get them away. I don’t want to have anything to do with them. But I think at this point, when I talk with them about issues, it obviously starts with nursing, but then I talk with them about other issues, I’m realizing that they are in the same literal class as I am. And we have a lot that we have in common. And I feel like this union world is an opportunity to actually have those conversations in a safe way. where my integrity is intact after those conversations because we are coworkers, we respect each other, we need each other in work, you know, and nursing is one of those things, you just can’t do it alone. You need a team. And so I’m grateful for that because labor is really a great equalizer. It’s not so much left versus right or even left versus the center left, it’s the working class against the billionaire class. And that’s how we’re going to actually turn the tides in this fascist state that we’re seeing. So yeah, I’m grateful for unions for that.
Speaker A:
I loved seeing— we didn’t really talk about this, but you were fired from your nursing job fairly recently. And I work with the IATSE stagehand union, and it was at a rally for you, I think, that a lot of my random IATSE coworkers showed up and were like, it was like this funny meeting of like, wait, you’re here? Wait, you’re here? And it was awesome.
Speaker E:
I think that, yeah, being fired was quite an experience. That’s a whole other topic of conversation. Totally. I am in the process of appealing that termination. It’s a slow process, but one that I have faith in. I want to go back to work. I know that I was fired for being an effective— for being ineffective. How do I say that without saying ineffective? A very effective leader. A very effective leader. I know that’s why they wanted to come after me. Yeah. And it hasn’t diminished anything about my ideas of what a union is capable of. It’s just, it made me more aware of like some of the risks, but You know, with the appeal, I’m hoping to get reinstated. And with getting reinstated, I’m hoping to really show this hospital system, like, if you come after one of us, you will— we will fight it and you will lose.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And so I’m excited to hopefully set that precedent. And also, like, to give some of the nurses, you know, the proof of, like, if we do this together, we can win it.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
But we have to— we have to try. Yeah. You know? You have to try.
Speaker A:
It’s like you have to show people that it works and that the union is willing to fight.
Speaker E:
Yeah. But I mean, like, I think that with, for myself, coming out of the closet, I was still in high school. It was really rough, you know, with my mom and all of that, my school, my friends. And I think that was the first time that in my life where I had to stick to my guns about something and find bravery. And like, even though I’m meeting all this resistance, I believe this about myself and I believe that I’m okay and I’m a good person still. And that experience I think really set the groundwork for being braver in other situations.
Speaker A:
Hell yeah. Yeah. We don’t have time to talk about strikes. I really want to talk to you. I really want to ask you about strikes.
Speaker E:
Maybe I should do this again.
Speaker A:
Yeah. Well, whatever. Just keep going. We’ll just keep going for a little while. Okay. We’ll just keep going. And you can edit it. You can edit it too. Maybe it’ll be 2 parts.
Speaker E:
Who knows?
Speaker A:
Okay. How does a nursing strike work? And I’m also so glad that nurses are willing to strike.
Speaker E:
Yeah.
Speaker A:
Because like, I don’t— it’s like, like, I know unions that are like, yeah, they’re willing to strike if the fucking stars align in some crazy planetary like thing that happens once every like 10 years or something. But it’s like a lot of unions have like really like, um, debilitating like anti-strike clauses in a lot of the contracts they sign.
Speaker E:
I know.
Speaker A:
kind of stop them from striking when it actually matters.
Speaker E:
Yeah. I mean, I have a lot of thoughts about that and how it came about. And, you know, there’s probably also room to read more about when that happened, you know, with the history of unions. It’s just, it’s been a really huge roller coaster of like the worker power that we’ve had since the 1900s, the 1930s, the 1970s, all these like really big fluxes. And then all of the like, really intense corporate and governmental slamdowns of, fuck you guys, we’re going to take away your power, in these insidious ways to where now it’s like, what, 10% is the national average of union membership within the workforce?
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
It’s low. It’s low, and it’s also, we’re in a moment where this is, in the last 5 years, I would say, where striking and union work and unionizing has really, like, been on an upswing.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
You know, that’s one of the funny things about being a part of a movement of any kind is you have to really hold both. This is bad. We’re in a bad place, and things— like, people are getting hurt, and the other side is so strong.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And we’ve accomplished so much, and we’ve done so much, and we can do more. Both are true. Before we get to the striking, I just want to say a little thing about— you asked about anyone who wants to organize who’s a nurse. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:
There’s too much to talk about.
Speaker E:
I know there’s too much, but I will say this small sentence, which is just, if you feel moved by any of what this conversation has been, if it resonates and you are like, I am a nurse, I work in a hospital, I am heartbroken from not being able to take care of my patients and I’m seeing my coworkers’ light leave their eyes, you know, then just go to the website and fill out, there’s like a space where it says, I think it’s nationalnursesunited.com, and there’s a space that says your name and like the hospital that you work at, how long you’ve been a nurse and something like that. And it gets sent to the organizers. Then the organizers come once they’ve gotten kind of enough people who can, who, who have expressed interest, um, or, um, they’ll maybe give a phone call of like, hey, what’s the situation? Um, and really, I, I can’t prescribe the exact— I think you said like the stars aligning and things like that. But if you have enough people in your workplace who are sick and tired of the bullshit, and if you have— a couple, even just a handful of people who are very experienced or very respected who can lead the fight in a strategic way, meaning keep it underground while you build support and then file for the election once you’re ready. Yeah. Yeah, because you don’t want somebody to be the leader who’s going to be like, union, with an air horn in the hallways before enough people understand what a union is in your workplace.
Speaker A:
Totally.
Speaker E:
It’s a slow, steady education build when you’re trying to form your union. So you do have to have patience with it. But then when it is time to come out and file for your election, it’s so glorious. Yeah. And hopefully all that slow one-on-one work that you did pays off. Because they will probably try and union bust and try and tell the workers all these kinds of lies about what a union is. And so you have to talk to people before that and sort of inoculate them to that misinformation.
Speaker A:
Totally. Totally. Yeah. You know, it’s— I don’t— I obviously don’t love that people can get, like, union busted for, like, especially being, like, vocal organizers or more visible organizers. But there is something that I like that, like, that it’s work that you have to do together. Like, you have to find ways to cooperate and like, work with each other and like, be invested together for it to work. It’s like the conditions for like, creating that suck, you know? But I’m like, I don’t know. I’m sure that makes for really strong like, coalitions of cooperation of people who are like, we have to work together.
Speaker E:
Yeah. I agree with all of that. I think that’s very well put. But your question about striking?
Speaker A:
Strikes. How does it work? That sounds scary.
Speaker E:
So with my union, and I guess specifically with my workplace, we’ve gone on strike once at my workplace. The first strikes, I was just talking to somebody about this. The first strikes that were nursing strikes happened around the ’70s, mid-’70s. First there was like a mass resignation.
Speaker A:
Mm-hmm.
Speaker E:
Over the fact that, like, they weren’t bargaining for contracts in good faith.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And so the nurses didn’t really— instead of striking, they were just like, we’re all resigning. Thousands and thousands and thousands of nurses in the Bay Area resigned.
Speaker A:
Whoa.
Speaker E:
And then they— the hospital came to the table, and then they’re like, all right, fine. We’ll do contract shit with you.
Speaker A:
Yeah, yeah. It’s not like— it’s not the most replaceable work.
Speaker E:
No, no. But I mean, you have to really— you have to give the credit also to— that’s like the civil rights movement had been in full swing for a long time, like women’s liberation movements, anti-war movements, like going out and putting— like saying with your full chest, I’m not going to take it anymore, and holding a sign, you know, is so brave, and it’s part of this larger movement work. And so I don’t think that would have happened if there weren’t all these other movements that were happening alongside of it that these nurses were a part of, even if they weren’t out there marching. They’re women. They’re women, multirace. There were all kinds of reasons to be out there. So there’s that. But when we went on strike, it was to get our first contract. So we had just unionized and we were bargaining every month. I was on the bargaining team. We were bargaining every month and the hospital was not coming to any of our demands. So we took a vote first amongst ourselves. We made a little box and everything, saying, this hospital is not coming to terms with any of our demands for this contract. We want to see if you guys want to strike. And the answer was overwhelmingly yes. If those nurses voted no overwhelmingly, we would’ve been like, all right, that’s fine. We won’t strike. But it has to be democratic. You have to have people who are really opting into this.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
But then, so once we have the yes vote, we give a 10-day notice to the hospital. And in that 10 days, with our intent to strike, we are not going to show up for this day. And it’s only one day, right?
Speaker A:
Totally.
Speaker E:
At that time, we were a baby union, like only one day. I think that’s common, but you saw probably not that long ago, the New York nurses were striking for a longer period of time. They have more union density, they have longer contracts, they just have different laws in place that support unions more than we do. And so it really depends what the strike is going to look like. What does the history of your union look like? And all those factors that help determine strength and what you guys can do. But for us, it was a 1-day strike. They had 10-day notice. In that 10 days, they could have— I mean, they had a couple of options. They could have transferred out all the patients to other hospitals, which would have been risky for the patients, embarrassing for them. Yeah. Yeah. But that was an option that they could do.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Technically, I guess. They could also hire a bunch of other nurses to come work the hospital for that time and paid them double, triple what we got for hourly wage. And you have to know those ratios for those nurses who come during a strike are beautiful. It was like 3 to 1 on my floor. That’s usually 6 to 1. Yeah.
Speaker A:
Sidebar question.
Speaker E:
Yeah.
Speaker A:
I feel like with— I’m curious. So normally in striking, that would be called scabbing.
Speaker E:
Scabbing, yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Okay. Well, I’ll just— I want to address that, but I guess the third option, just because I’m a 1, 2, 3 kind of gal. Yeah, yeah. So the first option, they could transfer all the patients out, but they never do that. The second option is getting a bunch of nurses to come in and work. And then the third is the hospital could just come to our demands. Meet your demands. Yeah. Like they could just meet the demands and then we wouldn’t strike. And so they weren’t going to do number 1. They weren’t going to do number 2. They ended up doing number 3. They ended up doing number 2 and they hired a lot of nurses to come. And what was funny about it is these nurses were also from our state. Right. So very, and there’s no unions there because my hospitals are the first ones to unionize. Right. So like, there’s no other real nurses unions around. So they were told by their hospital administration, you are going to help these nurses. You are helping them with their union efforts. And if you go, we’ll pay you a lot of money to do it. And so the nurses really, truly, honestly were like, I am helping the union nurses. And it was a misdirect.
Speaker A:
Okay. I’m like, what? Is that true?
Speaker E:
It was a misdirect.
Speaker A:
No.
Speaker E:
But this is an education uh, gap.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
People who aren’t familiar with unions, especially in the hospital world, um, don’t realize that if everybody said no to these scab contracts,
Speaker A:
yeah,
Speaker E:
it would bring the hospital to their knees.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
But when you say yes to a contract to cross a picket line and work, you’re not helping the nurses, you’re not helping the patients, you’re undermining what— you’re undermining our power in that moment. The threat of a strike.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Um, and so it’s funny because I, you know, I bear no ill will towards people who were told they were helping.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Um, but I do think that there needs to be more education on what this is within the nursing community.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Because it does seem dreamy to be like, I only work for one shift and I make how much money? You know?
Speaker A:
Totally.
Speaker E:
And it’s just, it’s Yeah. And so I guess in my mind, the scabs that I actually had issue with more so, and, you know, you— I think there are other union nurses who are like, no, those were scab nurses. Like, I don’t give them any lenience. Um, but for me, I think the, the ones that I had more, um, judgment towards were my coworkers who crossed the picket line. And so they, they knew what they were doing. Yeah. And on the day of our strike, I worked the night before. I was giving handoff to the charge nurse for the day shift on my unit. And he and I got along, you know, we’re both South American. Um, before, before that day, we were buds.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And so I gave report on the floor, all the patients, all the nurses. I gave them the nursing assignments. And then at the end, I looked at him and I think I said this actually in Spanish because there were hospital administrators that were following me around the last 2 unit— the last 2 hours of my shift, I think to like monitor me or surveil me or whatever.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
To intimidate me. So I said this in Spanish. I basically said, I am ashamed of you. You should be very ashamed of yourself. What you were doing is not helping.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And I can’t look at you. Don’t— and ’cause he was like asking me to understand.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
You know? And he was in the middle of my saying that, he asked me like, please understand, this is for my family. And I was just like, you’re not gonna get my forgiveness on this.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And he started crying and I didn’t cry.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
I don’t, I mean, I think that he maybe didn’t, yeah, didn’t see what he was really doing or didn’t want to look.
Speaker A:
Yeah. Because it’s like this one time that you make more money, like it’s not gonna, it’s not gonna do anything for you in a long-term way. And what like does do something for you in the long-term way is like reclaiming your power as workers and as a union.
Speaker E:
He would have made the same amount of money if he worked like one, maybe two extra shifts any other day.
Speaker A:
Yeah. Or it’s like, I imagine a lot of people would probably say like, oh, well, who’s going to take care of the patients? You know? And it’s like, and maybe this is me projecting, so please tell me if this is wrong.
Speaker E:
No, please. This is something that people really think, so it’s good to talk about it.
Speaker A:
In my opinion, as an outsider, it’s like the goal of what you’re describing of a nurses’ strike is not to withhold care. It is to reclaim power from your employers. And it’s like, I imagine, like, most nurses in that situation are like, their goal is not, I hope that the strike actually happens. It’s like, I hope that the administration meets our demands. Yes. So that patients don’t have to be at risk. But it’s like, The blood, if you do strike and no one scabs and no one is there, that blood is on the hospital admin’s hands.
Speaker E:
Yeah.
Speaker A:
Not on the nurses.
Speaker E:
I agree. I agree with that.
Speaker A:
Who gave them every opportunity to, like, avert that disaster.
Speaker E:
Yeah.
Speaker A:
And I don’t know, this is a projection obviously, but I’m like, that is the point of the strike is it has to It has to mean something. And the goal is not for those patients to die.
Speaker E:
No, obviously not. I mean, that’s the whole reason why we’re doing it is we see these micro moments of unsafe staffing affect our work, affect our patients, and that is the devastation. So we’re creating the strike in order to withhold our labor. Not withhold care, but withhold our labor.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Because that is power that we have as workers, not even just as nurses, but as workers. We run society.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
We drive the buses that get people to work. You know, we build the buildings, we fix the roads, we pick the food, we make the food, we package the food, we sell the food. Same thing with clothes, same thing with any physical object is made by somebody. you know, and then retailed by somebody else. And all of that is just so society can function, but the money is not distributed fairly for that. And the conditions under which we work and do all these production things or care work things, you know, we’re doing this under duress at this point. And I feel like, yeah, out of all the different unions, I think that the teachers union, there’s so much solidarity and similarity. There’s solidarity with everybody, of course, but there’s a lot of similarity because when the teachers went on strike several years ago, they faced the same sort of public scrutiny of like, how could these people abandon their kids?
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Their students?
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And I think it was— it’s an easy answer of like, we’re doing this for them because we want better conditions overall.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And I think it’s just the exact same conversation
Speaker A:
Yeah, yeah. It’s like, that’s on the admin, that’s on those corporations. They are the ones actually withholding care.
Speaker E:
Yeah. But I guess something that I’ll mention too, just because it was something that I was thinking earlier when we were talking about targeting and that, I feel like my goal as a union leader is not to be the number one. I feel like that has— like, I, I’ve— I, I do a lot, you know, like I have the time, I don’t have kids, you know, I, um, my, my parents don’t require care right now, but I do a lot. But ultimately what I want is for there to be so many leaders that you can’t really see who’s the only one. Yeah. And that’s what a powerful movement really is. And so when I got fired, I actually was not stressing about, I’m gone, the union is gonna collapse.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Because there are actually so many strong nurse leaders at my facility that I was like, okay, they got it. It’s okay. And I think that that’s a good lesson for the hospital too. It’s like, you think that you destroyed something, but I’m one of many.
Speaker A:
Yeah, yeah. I know that anarchists really like this metaphor over this other metaphor. It’s like, they thought they could bury us, but they didn’t know we were seeds and gonna proliferate, or whatever. And that we— that like, there’s this other metaphor that gets used a lot, but it’s usually to talk about bad things like capitalism, the many-headed Hydra.
Speaker E:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:
You know, Hydras, you cut one head off, 3 more grow back.
Speaker E:
Yeah.
Speaker A:
And I’m like, I want to be the Hydra.
Speaker E:
Yeah.
Speaker A:
And maybe that’s part of a whole conversation on reclaiming monstrosity. And maybe the Hydra is a little bit more of a complex thing with a history I don’t maybe totally understand, but I want to be the Hydra. And I want unions, like people in unions to feel like the Hydra where it’s like, nope, cut one of our heads off, 3 more are like there and baring their teeth immediately.
Speaker E:
I mean, I think that that is kind of what happened though. Like, there were people who were obviously like in the leadership positions anyway that just like rose to the challenge. And then I guess my absence created a vacuum, is what I’ve been told by other nurses. And so then these— there’s a couple of new people who stepped up.
Speaker A:
You’re just too strong.
Speaker E:
Yeah. And when I go back, it’ll just be like all the more, all the better.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
You know, and I think that union mentorship and nurse mentorship, it’s really very similar. It’s like, you’re capable of learning all of this stuff.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Let me help you. Let me show you. This is what someone told me. This is what I experienced.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
You know, this is what we’re trying to do. This is what we wanna avoid. Yeah, it’s all just skill. It’s, I mean, I think ultimately being a union leader, it’s a lot of social interactions. And funnily enough, there’s some people who are really good at union leadership and they’ve told me like, I’m actually an introvert. And I’m like, really? We just spent like 3 hours talking to people at a meeting.
Speaker A:
Oh my God.
Speaker E:
And they’re like, no, I’m an introvert. I’m going to go home and like sleep for a while.
Speaker A:
Oh my God.
Speaker E:
But they love this work, you know? And so like they went outside themselves and ended up learning this really intense skill of social butterfly-ness, you know? So there’s that. And then I don’t know, you just, you’re always educating. You’re repeating yourself a lot with a lot of the same you know, union 101 basics. You have to really invest in that listening part too. You have to, you have to listen. So I think it’s good if you’re able to like be, you know, able to sit in silence while the other person thinks.
Speaker A:
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E:
And while the other person like is trying to reach inside themselves to answer your, your pointed questions.
Speaker A:
Yeah, because it’s like, and it’s like especially talking to people, I, I feel like from what I’ve heard of like some of my friends who are doing especially like teacher union organizing with some schools that recently unionized where we live, and it’s literally fucking awesome.
Speaker E:
Yeah.
Speaker A:
It’s like this really complex work of having to talk, and you’ve mentioned this, it’s like having to talk to people who are coming from a lot of really, really different places and find commonality and cooperation to achieve a larger goal, which is like, fucking beautiful and cool. And like, I think is like a thing that especially like anarchists need to get better at sometimes. I’m not like, we fucking suck at that. I’m like, I don’t know, we could get better at it, honestly.
Speaker E:
Right, right. I, I think that it is, it is hard when you’ve been disappointed.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
By other factions of society.
Speaker A:
Totally.
Speaker E:
You know, especially for not realizing their power and being complacent or using their power to back the wrong horse.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
You know, um, I, I understand that disappointment deeply. And I also know that, you know, the last few— I mean, the last decade really of separatism has only pushed us further into our— to our own tunnels or vacuums or, or what, you know, like information things with our own algorithms where we’re only getting reinforced by what we think. Um, and I mean, that’s Union busting 101 and democracy busting 101 is just divide and make them think that— make everybody think that their enemy is their neighbor, you know? Yeah. And I don’t really have a good answer for how to totally keep your integrity while having those hard conversations with somebody who is really hateful in a racist, transphobic, homophobic, anti-immigrant kind of way, or even just disgusting, patriarchal kind of way. I’m trying to figure that out for myself, you know? Like, how do I really reach people who have those values?
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And I think the only thing that’s really made any sense is like, they also feel fucked by this system, usually, and their anger is just misplaced greatly. And so, however much I can tolerate having those conversations, I do. But yeah, I don’t— I just want to say that I do understand that mistrust, And it’s important to reach where you can because we all have spheres of influence, whether it’s in our workplace or in our families or in our communities, where there’s somebody who’s a little bit different who you would think isn’t fucking down for the cause. And maybe they are, you just haven’t reached them yet. You know, they’re waiting to be tapped.
Speaker A:
Yeah, I imagine a lot of people maybe start out a little lukewarm, and the more they get involved in union stuff, it probably shatters a lot of illusions.
Speaker E:
I mean, some of us who are really hardcore leftists
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Came to this ourselves.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
You know, somebody talked to us, somebody influenced us, someone who saw potential in our intellectual capacity to think about things in a more critical way. And so, I mean, we just have to do that for somebody else too.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Respect them enough to be like, yeah, no, you can understand this too.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
You know?
Speaker A:
Exactly.
Speaker E:
Yeah. Respect is a big thing.
Speaker A:
Yeah. I have a silly thing to ask you about before we go, and it ties really well actually back into how we started this conversation, which is— so you’re like a real union organizer, but what was it like to play a fictional one on stage? I’m looking at the poster for it. So the background of this is that Dominique and me were in another play together called Enrique la Cuarta, And it was like this reimagining of Henry IV, Part 1 as the Spanish Civil War. And Dominique played sort of like the, you know, not like the leader, but like a prominent radio personality and commander in this fictionalized version of the CNT. Mm-hmm. Enrique La Cuarta. And I’m just curious if that, like— because you played a fucking fiery and beautiful and powerful union leader on stage, and I was your scene partner for a lot of those, and it was incredible. Mm-hmm. I’m curious if there was bleedover in either direction or what that felt like to be playing a revolutionary union leader while you are in fact also a revolutionary union leader?
Speaker E:
Yeah. You know, that’s a great question. I was worried about trying out for that part because I’m like, is this— is this too on the nose? Um, in fact, I— but I also, like, I was reading— I read for different parts and I was like, y’all decide. I don’t— it’s not up to me. Um, but I remember I grabbed a fishbowl, a dirty-ass, dusty fishbowl, or maybe a cup or some sort of, like, glass thing, and I did my audition with that to like amplify my voice for the radio, quote unquote. And when I did that, I was like, oh, I think I could— I think I could do like a radio voice pretty well, and like the, the passion needed for that.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And so yeah, when I got cast with that, I was like, oh great. And then I really like was diving more into the script, and I was like, oh, she’s— oh, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Um, what it did for me is really just make me appreciate how big labor movement history is.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And how many unsung heroes there really are. Um, I think it actually sparked an interest in labor history for me that I’ve been really deep diving into, um, since I, since I got fired and I’ve just had more time on my hands.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Um, the shirt that I’m wearing actually is from the West Virginia Mine Wars Museum near Big One.
Speaker A:
Oh, yeah.
Speaker E:
And I made a special road trip out there in the spring because I wanted to, I wanted to be there. And I feel like the lessons that I’ve really learned from reading about, you know, all the different sparks of the labor movement, not only in the United States, but in different parts of the world, is like, because this music, because this movement is so big and so, important and so beautiful, there are a lot of similar threads that run through it all. Like, I’m a nurse and I work in a hospital, and when I was looking at the coal miners, their dog tags on the wall, you know, of people who had been killed in the mines, or when I was looking at the mock tent they had and like the frying pans, you know, they would like dig holes in the tent and cover their heads with frying pans because, like, goons would come by and shoot at the tents. And they were in the tents because they got kicked out of their houses. They got kicked out of their houses because they went on strike. You know, like, they weren’t paid real money. They were, um, you know, there were kids, children working. So their demands were different than what our demands are and for, like, our nursing contract. But the spirit is the same and the demand for respect is the same and the value for human life is the same. Yeah. And also, like, when I was looking at that, there was a placard that talked about that one of the wives of the miners who was sick of hiding and covering her head with a frying pan and covering her children’s head with frying pans, she went out. She— so the, the people who had the machine guns were on a train, and the train was right by the tent city. And so she and other wives got pickaxes and fucking tore the train tracks up.
Speaker A:
Oh my God, I’ve never heard this story.
Speaker E:
Yes, yes.
Speaker A:
Fuck yeah.
Speaker E:
And so I feel like it’s not just like, oh, we all struggle. Oh, it’s so hard. It’s like, no, we— it’s important to read about this history because they were fucking badass.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
They were brave. They were bold.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And so playing Enrica, I think, made me feel connected to this other part of labor world that I hadn’t really explored. And I think it opened my brain up to, yeah, just how big this is and how I’m, I’m but a small part. I’m a What did I say once that I was just like, oh, that I should write that down. It was like, I’m a drop of water in a tidal wave.
Speaker A:
Aw.
Speaker E:
You know? And I’m very proud to be that. Yeah. But the other thing that it made me think a lot about is like the sacrifice for some people has been their lives. You know, the sacrifice for some people has been their careers, their livelihood, their ability to make money, their freedom. You know, there are some people within not just labor movement work, but just movement work in general, they’ve been jailed.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
You know, they’ve lost their sanity sometimes because this work is so hard and it feels impossible sometimes.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
And so I feel like there’s a lot of mental health risks that we take to really try to understand how horrible this system is. but we have to try to understand it in order to change it. So yeah, I think that looking at those risks and looking at what other people have done, like when I lost my job, I was like, you know, it’s just a job. You know, like other people have sacrificed so much and mine is just my job. It’s okay. And I’m fighting for it back. You know, and I have a lot of support doing that with my union. So like, it’s gonna be okay. Even if I don’t get my job back, it’s gonna be okay. I’ll keep being a nurse. I will keep fighting with union stuff. I’ll try and unionize another hospital.
Speaker A:
You know, like I’m not gonna stop.
Speaker E:
Just take ’em all. on.
Speaker A:
Yeah,
Speaker E:
I’ll either go back and, and go back to being the union leader there, or I’ll, I’ll see who else can be union leader somewhere else, you know. But yeah, I think that there’s, there’s also this idea, like with the miners or with other parts of the labor movement, you know, like people fight for decades and they don’t really see all the time the fruits of their labor.
Speaker A:
Mm-hmm.
Speaker E:
But they’re the only reason we have so many protections that we do have now with regards to like the 40-hour work week or breaks or weekends or time off or PTO or sick time or maternity leave. Like, obviously that can all be better and more robust, but like child labor laws exist because people fought for them. Everything that exists is because people fought for them. And I think, you know, just especially with that mining museum, there was this timeline of like Wildcat Strike in like 1899, And then like 25 years of really intense strikes and some people dying at the hands of the police and goons that were, you know, like really intense sacrifice. And then, you know, the NLRA came about, um, you know, when? Late ’30s, ’40s. And it’s like, wow, someone could go their entire working life and not see the fruits of their labor, but it didn’t matter. did matter. And so when I think about what I’m doing, even if I don’t, you know, even if we don’t get the ratio law in my career lifetime, I think we will, but even if we don’t, I am going to push until I don’t have any breath left in my body in order to win something like that, in order to set the next generation up so that it’s not as hard for them later. And so I think that was also a big lesson from learning More Labor History, which was inspired by being Enrica, which is like everything that you’ve— that feels like it’s not doing something, all the push and all the energy that you put into change, it actually does matter. It just feels like you’re always losing. So it’s kind of a mind game. It really is, but it all matters. Yeah,
Speaker A:
it does.
Speaker E:
It all matters.
Speaker A:
It does all matter. There’s, um, I’m gonna misquote our own book, um, which, I mean, it’s not our book, it’s not our words, but, um, Lorenzo Orsetti is an Italian anarchist who was a fighter over in Rojava who very tragically died. He has this quote about being raindrops, and it’s like the— which I’m gonna extrapolate upon now, which is that it’s like the individual raindrops, it’s like they all matter because it’s like the sensation of feeling rain is beautiful,
Speaker E:
Mm-hmm.
Speaker A:
And all of those tiny little raindrops turn into vast floods.
Speaker E:
Mm-hmm.
Speaker A:
And it’s beautiful. And maybe you don’t remember this line, and I really— this is my fangirl moment having directed you in this play. Let me direct you once again. One of my favorite lines that I heard you say so many dozens and dozens of times throughout this play run. Will you give us a little Enrica Behold the unvanquishable power of organized labor.
Speaker E:
That’s the full line?
Speaker A:
There’s more and I can’t remember the rest.
Speaker E:
Oh, I wish I knew.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Wait, you have the script. Just— we can look it up. Let’s get it right. I will also say that my voice is kind of messed up because I lost my voice because myself and a bunch of union nurses were having an anti- ice rally. And so I apologize for my voice.
Speaker A:
It’s gravelly from the war.
Speaker E:
It’s gravelly from the war. My blood hath been too warm and patient, more inclined and meek to endure your crimes. Thou hast observed this, yet treacherously my patience you have abused.
Speaker F:
So know this, from hence I will heed to Dear Earth, and act with revolutionary instinct. Guerrera Tierra, who is fair and just, has selected us, the sociable, to live and improve, whilst marks for extinction those fascists who think the lone fittest survives best. It is for we to know, and you to suffer, the power unvanquishable of organized labor.
Speaker A:
Thank you so much. Thank you for humoring me. That was beautiful.
Speaker E:
Anytime.
Speaker A:
Do you have any last things to say before we depart this nearly 2-hour interview, which is surely going to be cut up into 2 pieces at this point? And anything related or unrelated you want to shout out today?
Speaker E:
I will just say that as somebody who loves and respects all the different movements that are active right now, and I’ve had the, like, beautiful experience of being active in, in my short life. I feel like labor is something that is really accessible, and like you had mentioned earlier, Inman, has great potential for coalition building. I think it’s a very formidable threat to capitalism.
Speaker A:
Unvanquishable.
Speaker E:
Unvanquishable, some say. And so I think it’s really worth, if you are feeling Like, I don’t know where to plug in and I don’t know if I have capacity to like just completely create a structure from thin air or from my friends who maybe are already kind of exhausted from, we’re all kind of doing something, right? I think what’s nice about doing something at your workplace is you’re there anyway. You’re there anyway and you don’t have to—
Speaker A:
You might as well make it bearable.
Speaker E:
You don’t have to be the leader. Um, but you, you can find a leader, you know, and if you, and honestly, if you’re just passionate enough, that’s usually what breeds leaders is like, I, I want to see this through. Um, so yeah, I think that as somebody who, um, is very far left and has been so disappointed by so many, um, different institutions and structures, I feel like union, union work is one of the structures that can be very democratic, be very much like you get out of it what you put into it, and you just don’t have to reinvent the wheel to be a part of it. And then you’ll realize you have allies everywhere, and there’s solidarity everywhere, and it’ll, you know, it just humanizes everyone.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Yeah. So I think that’s my last thing. It’s just like everyone can get involved. If you’re a nurse especially, you should get involved. People really, the public loves nurses. You know, like we have a lot of trust from the community. And when, when we’re out there, um, I can see it in their eyes. They’re like, yeah, you, you, you know what to do.
Speaker A:
Yeah.
Speaker E:
Yeah.
Speaker A:
Well, thank you for knowing what to do, and thank you for being so fucking awesome and inspiring as always.
Speaker E:
Thank you. Thank you for having me and, uh, talking with me. It’s been really nice.
Speaker A:
Wonderful. Well, we’ll talk to you another time. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, you can also support it, and you can support it by supporting our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. And a great way that you can support us right now is by waiting for our next book to go to preorder. It is called Aspiration Risk, and we’re gonna have an interview with the author Up here in like 2 weeks, I think, from the time this is being recorded in November. We’re really excited about this book and this 2-week entreat into nursing is going to lay a really good groundwork for this book, which is about sex work, healthcare, and doing street outreach work. You can also support Strangers by checking out our Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinentangledwilderness. Where for a variety of tiers of support, you can get a whole bunch of different things. And I’m really just not going to get into it today because I’m tired. And so I’m just going to read this list of names and things and stuff that people have asked me to by signing up for our Patreon acknowledgment tier. This makes it sound like I don’t like doing this. I love doing this. Thank you for getting me to say all these things. And I really love the creativity that people are having with it. And I’m like, what else can we put into the world? I’m so thrilled to thank these wonderful people, places, things, animals, fictional concepts, different organizations, and random stuff. Thank you, August Hope, Ghost Cats Eddie and Percy, Chuchali, Defending Tikunu, We Will Remember Flora Tristan, the Chattanooga Free Store, Santa Fe Food Not Bombs, Glenn, Please Fight Anti-Fatness, Arizona Sunsets, Bunny Bionics, Patrick Harnett Marshall, rest in peace. All wiener dogs everywhere. The first 2 chapters of The Eden Project by James Hollis. The Kiwanisocialists. The Athens People’s Assembly of Athens, Georgia. Mr. Kraft, your Canadian friend. Mark, Tiny Nonsense. Sarah, A Future for Abby. The Canadian Socialist Rifle Association. I want to shout out Abby who recently helped me make a flyer. Thanks to that Abby. I don’t think you listen to the show, but I’m thanking you anyways. He and He, Max, Lancaster County Chooses Love, Karen, the Astoria Food Pantry, the Enchanted Rats of Turtle Island, Feral in West Virginia, Blink Cat, the Massachusetts chapter of the Socialist Rifle Association, Shulva, Jenny and Phoebe the cats, Jason, Aiden and Yuki the dog, Alexander Gopal, Sunshine, Opticuna, Portland’s Hedron Hackerspace, Julia, Appalachian Liberation Library, Lord Harkin, Baby Acab and her 3 great pups, Ephemeral, Princess Miranda, Janice and Odell, Boldfield, Allie, Paparuna, Milica, Theo, SJ Page, the Pocono Pink Pistols, Nicole, and Tikva the dog. David, Towser’s love of bumblebees, may it be forever. Carson, Dana, Chelsea, Amber, Marjorie, the truth that we will outlive them. Kirk, Micaiah, Chris, the incredible Ren Arai, Micah, and Haas the dog. Uh, thanks so much for everything, because this is an entirely listener-supported podcast. And we love that. And we love you. Bye.
