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Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast with your host Nicole Rose from the
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Solidarity Apothecary.
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This is your place for all things plants and
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liberation.
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Let’s get started.
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Hello. Welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast.
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How are you doing?
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I’m good.
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In the last few days now of promoting the
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Herbalism PTSD and Tronic stress course,
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it’s been a lot of work.
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It’s always a lot of work.
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But it is worth it when I just get these really lovely emails from people being like,
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oh my God, this is amazing.
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I’m sorry if you’ve joined and you haven’t been able to access the private podcast feed.
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I done it on my side uploading all the things and I’m now just trying to like import the
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emails of all the people on the course.
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It’s just not working and I keep trying to figure it out and I’m not one of those people
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that reach out to support very much.
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Like I will read those how to guides very
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thoroughly on the Captivate website.
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But whenever I message them saying like, hey,
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I can’t work this out or it’s telling me to contact support,
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they don’t.
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It feels like they just don’t get back to me
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till like the night time.
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I’m like, dude, I only have a few hours to work in the morning.
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So anyway, I’m really sorry if you joined the course and you’re waiting for that private
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podcast feed.
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It was a labour of love sorting all the audios out, recording the bits that didn’t have
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audios, recording the introduction, getting them all in order, doing the show notes like
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it is all there ready and waiting for people.
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I just need to import this list of emails.
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So it’s very frustrating.
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It might be because there’s too many.
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There’s like over two and a half thousand
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learners.
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Can you believe it?
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******* hell.
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I had like, I have a dashboard that kind of
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like tracks the like the learndash analytics.
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So I can see like how many people have completed the course, stuff like this, but
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like it kind of gets lost like how many people have actually joined.
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And I’m very aware that lots of people sign up and then I never return to it.
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But I do think compared to like the other online courses and like the sort of rates
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online, I think the kind of numbers of people that actually work through it is like really,
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really high, which really means a lot to me and I think it just gives a nice like **** you
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middle finger to people that are like,
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don’t give stuff for free.
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Because people won’t value it.
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And it’s like, okay, your classism is showing.
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I mean, I do understand that.
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And don’t get me wrong, I’ve had lots of,
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like, challenges with like, sliding scales and all sorts of **** in the past with different,
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you know,
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things I’ve done, like my workers co op, when we used to teach courses stuff.
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But yeah, I think overall it’s just like people are interested in trauma and the
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nervous system and how the.
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Do we navigate this world and how can plant medicines support us and what role do they
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play? What role do they play?
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And, you know,
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how do we have more of a limit.
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I can’t speak today, more of a liberating view of trauma that isn’t just kind of highly
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individualised and, you know, this person is mad or whatever, but is like, you know,
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looking at the conditions of the world that we’re living in.
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So ran over.
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The private podcast will be here soon.
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And yeah, I’m super grateful for everyone
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that’s joined.
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If you’re able to, like, do a cheeky share on
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the old Instagram or something, I’d appreciate it so much.
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Or just forward one of the newsletters to people that you would recommend the course to,
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like that sort of stuff.
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Like, you cannot underestimate how helpful it
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is.
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So, yeah,
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okay, so I’m gonna continue on with the sleep theme and today I’m going to be talking about
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sedative herbs and I’ve got another episode all about sort of hypnotic and sedative herbs,
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which I will.
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I keep saying I’ll put it in the show notes.
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Do I put it?
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I don’t think I do.
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I’m sorry.
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One day I won’t be working at the speed of light.
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It’s just this, like, ridiculous childcare situation of, like,
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I don’t want to, like, have.
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I want to have as many hours as I can with my
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small child.
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So, like, I just.
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I’m trying to squeeze everything in too fast and I should just surrender the fact that I
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need to let some stuff go or support less clients or not do the free clinic or like all
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of these different options.
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But I don’t want to do that either.
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So I’m just trying to do both, which is probably silly, but.
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Right, sorry, I’ve obviously had too much coffee this morning.
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Okay,
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sedative nervines, let’s ******* get stuck in.
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Okay, sorry, this is just like a second mini introduction bit, but I went on a few rants in
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this episode and I just wanted to give like a Solid content warning that I do end up kind of
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referencing like,
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like sexual assault and rape and trauma while under like anaesthesia.
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And I also talk about active addiction and alcohol,
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car accidents.
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Hell, it was a big episode.
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But yeah, I just want to kind of give that
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content warning before I start talking about the sexual assault stuff.
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I do like say that I’m about to talk about it, so you can kind of pause that and skip ahead.
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I know I haven’t put the like, specific time that you can skip into, but yeah, I kind of,
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you know,
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for a good chunk of the rest of that episode, I will talk about more like trauma things.
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So yeah, I just wanted to, to share that.
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Okay, thanks so much for listening.
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All right, so like I mentioned, I’ve already got an episode exploring sedative nervines
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where I talk kind of more specifically about the herbs.
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And I will definitely be giving like frequent examples to the herbs in this episode.
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But the kind of focus of this episode is more around like safety and the things that really,
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really need to be thinking about.
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So just to start, like sedative herbs can be wonderful medicines, like life changing
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medicines.
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Like I’ve tried and worked with most of these
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plants.
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Well, all of these plants in different
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contexts and they’re just super wonderful.
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Like, I’m so grateful we have this plant medicine that’s accessible to us,
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but just because, you know, it’s the adult age old thing.
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Sorry, I get my metaphors jumbled up.
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Anyone that knows me personally will enjoy
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this part of my.
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Happens frequently.
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But yeah, so basically natural doesn’t mean harmless.
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Right? Like, and I think when we’re working with.
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I hate the word strong because it’s so ******* subjective, but when we’re working with herbs
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that have like more kind of potential, higher consequences, then we need to really be
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thinking about safety very kind of seriously.
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And like tactically does that make sense? So I don’t want to like generate fear around
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herbs.
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Like, I want people to experiment with plants
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and to not feel frightened of them.
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Really important.
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But it is just good to kind of, yeah, cover
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our bases of like important kind of safety factors that are most especially important
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with these like stronger sedative herbs.
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And again, just to like preface this, like,
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risk is kind of complicated and does depend on the specific plan, but also like the dose,
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how it’s prepared,
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the person,
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like how a herb interacts with them specifically.
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And I’ll be giving some examples of this and also just someone’s personal context.
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Like are they pregnant? Are they on medication?
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Like all of these Things.
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So it’s not like this herb is dangerous.
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It’s like actually this herb carries more risk
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in this context or isn’t safe in this context.
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Or you need to think about this.
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Like I said, herbalism is very complicated, which is why my herbalism, PTSD and traumatic
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stress course is really helpful because it kind of lays out these different nuances and
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these kind of safety considerations for 32 different plants.
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And that’s like a very good grounding for someone that is kind of new to this.
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And it’s a lot of information to kind of get your head around.
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Okay, so I’m just going to explore some of the factors that can kind of influence like the
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risk profile of a sedative herb.
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And by sedative herbs.
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The herbs I’m going to be kind of mentioning or talking about are herbs like hops, for
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example, and wild lettuce,
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passionflower flower, valerian skullcap,
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California poppy,
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like cramp bark is kind of an anti spasmodic but can be used as a sedative.
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And also herbs like mugwort that are like traditionally used with around like dreamwork
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and stuff.
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So I’m going to be kind of like dancing between different examples of these plants.
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But I’m very aware that that’s like the kind of narrow materia medica that I work with in
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terms of my bioregion and herbs that I can access more easily.
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So you might have other sedative herbs depending where you’re listening.
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Right.
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Okay. So one of the herbal safety things that comes up in herbal safety classes and things
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is this thing of a kind of additive effect.
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So it’s like someone might be taking a
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medication that has a certain effect, like lowering blood pressure, for example.
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And then if you give them a herb that also can potentially lower blood pressure,
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it’s like an additive effect.
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Right.
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It’s like two of the same effects.
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And don’t get me wrong, herbs are amazing and kind of mystical and magical and that they can
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often go both ways with different actions and all this sort of stuff.
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But we do need to be thinking what like sedation is this person already like
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encountering in their kind of lifestyle or their like the prescription medications, for
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example, or non prescribed medications, drugs, things like that that someone is taking.
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So I think like one of the most common things is alcohol.
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So alcohol is obviously, you know, depending on what you’re drinking, like it can be very
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stimulating and can definitely affect sleep in lots of ways.
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But there’s also lots of forms of alcohol that are like very sedative.
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of two years of sleep deprivation, looking after an infant that it would probably just
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knock me out and I’d be pretty boring in that party.
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But if someone is like regularly drinking alcohol, especially if they’re in active
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addiction,
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I wouldn’t want to be giving them sedative herbs that had like a strong relaxant effect
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on the central nervous system because it is just double and double.
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Does that make sense?
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If you can trust that that person has a kind of non addictive relationship or non
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dependency relationship where yeah, they might drink over the odd night, but actually when
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they’re not drinking and they’re struggling to sleep, they will just kind of sensibly take a
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recommended amount of a herb,
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you know, tincture or something to support their sleep.
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That’s like very different to someone in active addiction who is just not able to kind
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of like have that like measured like limitation of what they’re taking.
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So yeah, that’s like a whole other ball game in terms of,
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yeah, alcoholism and active addiction and herbal medicine.
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And I’d love to interview some guests around that.
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I think it’s quite close to home for me at the moment because of my ex relapsing after like
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five years and that just being very kind of devastating in all directions.
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Thankfully he’s doing really well and he’s literally just left rehab and moved into a dry
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house, which is awesome.
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And I’m stoked for him.
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And he’s able to see me and our son like a few times a week now, which is wonderful.
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So, you know, I don’t wanna be a Debbie Downer about this stuff, but it’ just something to
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consider.
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Okay. So yeah, alcohol.
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The other thing that I would be particularly
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worried about is if someone is already being prescribed sedatives.
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And many people that are having problems with sleep will go to the doctor, understandably.
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And then the doctor will prescribe sleeping tablets without addressing any of the other
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factors that I’ve been talking about in this series, you know, like digestion and
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inflammation and hormonal changes and nervous system activation.
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Like that stuff is just not coming into a ten minute doctor appointment.
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Right.
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So someone might already be taking sedatives
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and they might be taking them like particularly with the goal of sleeping, but
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they might also be taking them for like other reasons, like to prevent psychosis, for
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example,
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or they might be taking like antihistamines that help with like migraine prevention.
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And it might Be that they don’t perceive their medication as a sedative.
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But hopefully with your sort of herbal knowledge and stuff, you’ll be aware that this
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medication is having a sedating effect and therefore kind of like,
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yeah, adding in a sedative herb is like not a good idea.
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I think there is like nuance to this and it comes down to again, the person,
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you’re sort of trusting them, that they’re kind of sensible and measured with stuff.
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But like, some people will take,
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excuse me, an antihistamine and it just won’t knock them out.
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Like if I have anti histamine, I’ll barely be able to wake up.
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But yeah, for other people, they don’t have that quite strong effects.
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So they might be able to then take some sort of like hypnotic sedative herb in moderation
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and that not be harmful as a combination.
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But yeah, I’m.
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I’m concerned basically about sedating antihistamines also.
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A lot of the sort of sedative nervines are often contraindicated with like various
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different antidepressants.
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And I think sometimes like that that reaction
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is kind of like known like I feel like most herbal education around herbs like hops,
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people will be like, avoid with depressants with antidepressants because of this,
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like, you know, sedating property and you know.
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But like the thing with sedative herbs is like most of them have either like a strong effect
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on the central nervous system or they’re like doing something around neurotransmitters like
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GABA or serotonin.
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And that’s where they’re sort of risk profile comes in with a lot of the more like
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psychoactive medications.
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So yeah, I’m just kind of a little bit.
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I’m very cautious as a herbalist.
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But yeah.
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So like any other sort of sedating
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medications,
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you know, we’re thinking about like, especially like,
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you know, serious things like benzodiazepines, for example, or opioids.
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You know, like if someone is either, you know, like using opiates and stuff, that’s like one
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thing.
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And like I said, like the active addiction
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stuff’s like a challenge.
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But also if someone is just on like buckloads of pain medication and again, that pain
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medication,
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like tramadol or whatever, like it might not be touching the sides for them.
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It might not be actually helping them sleep.
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But again, it’s like what’s ******* preventing them from sleeping.
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And maybe it’s the pain.
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So therefore, like herbal pain support could
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be really powerful.
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Or all these like Things like addressing
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inflammation and stuff like is going to be really, really important.
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So again, let’s like never forget that we have to be looking at why a pattern is happening
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and what other drivers that we can address.
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But yeah, like if someone was on like a lot of heavy, heavy meds, like I would, yeah I would
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just be nervous of using too much sedation or even any sedation depending on the context.
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And you know, everyone is specific.
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Okay. You’ll see this in herbal books of like, don’t drive or operate machinery.
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But like this is really ******* serious.
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Like in terms of,
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you know, like if someone has too much of a sedative herb,
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they might literally crash their ******* car and kill someone.
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Like that is a risk.
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Like we have to be thinking about that as a
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herbalist and I hate to say it but like even like bashing a little cup of tincture, like
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that might be enough alcohol to tip someone over the edge if they haven’t had had alcohol
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in years,
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for example.
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Or they’re like very sensitive
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constitutionally.
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Like I wouldn’t feel safe taking loads of
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tincture and driving.
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Like, I just wouldn’t.
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Like, I don’t, you know, obviously don’t drink and drive but I’m, I’m very sensitive about
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this because my mum was like hit in a hit and run and my dad also got hit by a driver.
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So yeah, like it’s just like a,
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it’s a real thing.
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So yeah, think about timing and it’s not just
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about when someone is taking a herb and then like are they taking it just before bed?
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But like how long is their sleep? Like are they sleeping 12 hours and maybe it’s
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hopefully out of their system? Or are they waking up at like 4 in the morning
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and like getting the tube to work or whatever.
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I mean not that the tube’s a problem but like, you know, are they driving to work for
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example? So everyone has like a different kind of
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clearance time with any pharmaceutical med or any herb.
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Like we all have different bodies, different metabolism of how long that herb and that
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herbal action is going to be kind of impacting us.
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So yeah, we need to kind of be thinking about that.
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So yeah, like the driving, the heavy machinery.
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I never thought I’d be interested in heavy machinery.
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But having a toddler, like I know all of them now.
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I know like all of the ******* construction vehicles because my son just shouts them out
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whenever we drive past them.
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So yeah, don’t ******* operate that excavator with a lot of sedative herbs in you.
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Okay? There’s also other risks and like things like
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falls for example.
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So if you’ve ever done like elder care or had to look after an elderly relative like I’ve
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done this with like near enough all of my grandparents.
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Like I lived with my stepdad’s mum who had dementia for like five years and helped care
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for her.
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I helped drive back and forth to my grandparents house like and supported my nan
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and my granddad with like all of their sort of transitions and different things.
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And like full risks are like so ******* serious.
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So like if they were struggling with sleep I would be very, very, very nervous of giving
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them some sort of strong herb because I’d be really frightened of them falling over in the
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night for example.
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And also like a lot of people especially in these kind of long Covid times have a lot of
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kind of like balance issues and like POTS type symptoms where they are a little bit prone to
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falls and feeling dizz.
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Yeah like, and that stuff’s quite serious.
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Like my best friend Jilly who died in 20,
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Like the kind of predecessor to her dying is she,
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she had really bad.
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Well she died of pneumonia but she’d had like
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heart surgery and stuff and she’d been in hospital and you know, she was kind of like,
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I don’t want to say on her way out but she was in that kind of like, like end days of like.
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Yeah, system shut down I guess.
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And you know, side note, that is why I’m
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really passionate about this stuff because I’ve just seen too many brave, amazing,
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incredible people throw themselves into struggles for liberation and take zero care of
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themselves.
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And it just destroys me internally.
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Okay.
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So yeah, one of the things that was like a predecessor to her death was she was on like a
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kind of cocktail of different medications and the combination of one of them like triggered
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a blackout basically and triggered her to fall backwards and she broke her pelvis and then
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got pneumonia.
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And there’s like lots of fascinating research around this correlation between people
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breaking pelvises and then developing infections.
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And there’s lots of like mechanisms around like the immune system and white blood cell
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counts, stuff like this, which is really interesting.
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But this is what I’m saying is like a simple fall could like trigger quite a like serious
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cascade for someone like if they were like elderly and vulnerable or physically
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vulnerable or you know, just like I see loads of people now in my clinic who’ve had one
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injury like throwing themselves off that handle wheels of a bike and that’s caused like
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like serious alignment Problems and then they’re in pain for like years and years.
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So it’s like,
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yeah, basically we don’t want to be having a strong herb that can knock you out to the
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point that you’re gonna fall over.
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Do you know what I mean?
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Especially if someone is experiencing like a lot of night wakings with a lot of movement.
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I would be, yeah, I’d be really cautious.
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Okay. And then,
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yeah, the other layer is kind of like pregnancy and breastfeeding, so.
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Or chest feeding.
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So these are obviously like two different
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scenarios.
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But you know, with any pregnant person we need
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to think about like risks to the infant.
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Right.
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Like, it’s like herbal safety 101 and also obviously risk to the pregnant person.
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And the.
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Yeah, the sedative herbs profiled in the PTC course, like in the safety section, I will
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like include their noted risks, if that makes sense.
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Sleep is often something that goes a bit AWOL with pregnancy.
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I find on my experiences, like, it tends to go in the other direction of just really tired
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and wanting to sleep a lot.
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God, I missed the days where I could sleep like 10 hours straight, like, no problem.
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Oh, anyway, that’s, you know, I probably could still sleep that long, but I just have a two
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year old, like, waking me up.
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But yeah, like, I have one example of taking more sedative plants.
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Like obviously like breast and chest feeding is like complicated in terms of like what’s
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going through to the infant through breast milk.
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And that’s like, you know, quite a kind of like,
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I don’t want to say under researched area, but it’s like a mixed area.
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You know, like after I gave birth, I had a kind of like nursing tea which actually had
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quite a lot of like mild sedatives, like more relaxant nerve irons like chamomile and
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lavender that, you know, can easily like knock a baby out.
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Do you know what I mean? Like,
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we say sedative herbs, but like, for some people,
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chamomile is like enough of a sedative.
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Like they couldn’t take chamomile in the
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daytime because it would get them to sleep.
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Do you know what I mean?
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Or lavender would make them like sleepy enough.
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Like,
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whereas that’s quite different to like a hypnotic nervine, like wild lettuce or
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something.
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But yeah, I can’t remember what was going on with my sleep, but I think,
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I don’t know, there was just like some patch where I just sort of struggled and I think I
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just like found some skull cap glycerite somewhere.
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Like I can’t remember.
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And I was having a bad night and I literally took, like, literally a sip of it to try and
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get back to sleep.
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And then when Lee was still breastfeeding,
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then, but when he wanted a feed, like, I remember,
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like, barely being able to keep my eyes open.
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Like, literally I couldn’t keep my head up.
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Like, that’s how much skullcap knocks me out.
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But, like,
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yeah, like, it was really hard to, like, actually safely breastfeeding him.
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And it really gave me a fright.
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And I thought, you know, these warnings they
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put on monographs and stuff, like, they’re true around breastfeeding.
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Like, like,
Nicole:
and I think the challenge with breastfeeding is, like, you’re so nervous, exhausted because
Nicole:
you’re waking up every few hours.
Nicole:
Like, especially in those, like, first few
Nicole:
months where they’re so tiny and they just want all the booby.
Nicole:
So, like, things that will knock you out.
Nicole:
Like, they’re just.
Nicole:
There’s kind of a no go.
Nicole:
Like, you need to be alert.
Nicole:
And I think a lot of the kind of, like, newborn neurological changes in the parents,
Nicole:
like, play a role.
Nicole:
Right? Like your hearing changes and like, you know,
Nicole:
like, my ex could just easily sleep through, not hear our child wake up.
Nicole:
But I would, like, always hear him.
Nicole:
I mean, he was nearly always, like, sleeping
Nicole:
nearer on my body, so of course I could hear him more.
Nicole:
But anyway, I won’t go on about this too much, but I just want to basically say, like,
Nicole:
it is a really necessary consideration if someone is breastfeeding or chest feeding to,
Nicole:
like, think about a. Is this herb safe for that infant to be consuming somehow?
Nicole:
But also just, like, how much is this gonna knock out the parent?
Nicole:
Likewise with children, right.
Nicole:
They’ve got.
Nicole:
They’re not just like, small adults.
Nicole:
Like, they’ve got very different physiology in
Nicole:
terms of, like, heart rate and, like, metabolism and like, all the different things.
Nicole:
So we need to be, yeah, just, like, sensitive to the fact that it’s not appropriate to give
Nicole:
them, like, sedative herbs.
Nicole:
Like, I’ll very occasionally give Lee a tiny,
Nicole:
like, couple of mil of like, chamomile glycerite, like, if he’s teething really badly
Nicole:
or just like, struggling to settle.
Nicole:
And that’s nearly always because he’s teething.
Nicole:
But I would, like, never give him, like, a stronger herb.
Nicole:
Like, it just wouldn’t be necessary or sort of safe on his nervous system, in my opinion.
Nicole:
Okay.
Nicole:
So,
Nicole:
yeah, the other sort of safety stuff I wanted to talk about is obviously, like, I’ve talked
Nicole:
about the risk of combining with, like, sedative Medications,
Nicole:
but just kind of like, we need to be thinking about all medications.
Nicole:
So in the herbal safety lesson of the PTSD course, I do,
Nicole:
you know, go through the things we need to consider are around all sorts of meds, like,
Nicole:
is this herb going to be speeding up how fast we metabolise that drug in the body, and
Nicole:
therefore our body’s going to be kind of without that action,
Nicole:
if that makes sense.
Nicole:
So that’s what makes it high risk.
Nicole:
Like things like St. John’s Wort.
Nicole:
Or is this herb gonna slow down? I mean, yeah.
Nicole:
Is this, like.
Nicole:
Yeah. Is this herb going to, like, slow down digestion, which might affect absorption?
Nicole:
Like, all of these things? Like, I talk about this in the PTSD course,
Nicole:
but,
Nicole:
yeah, it’s not just,
Nicole:
like.
Nicole:
It’s not just sedating medications.
Nicole:
It’s like, all medications that we need to
Nicole:
screen when we’re working with a sedative herb.
Nicole:
Okay. And then dose really, really matters.
Nicole:
And I shared, like, an Instagram post in real
Nicole:
last night where I was talking about valerian.
Nicole:
And valerian is this amazing herb that has, like, paradoxical action, like, paradoxical
Nicole:
effects on different people.
Nicole:
And I think it’s like a fantastic, like,
Nicole:
teaching hub in terms of,
Nicole:
like, emphasising, like, how different everyone is.
Nicole:
Like, I think when you first get into herbalism, you, like, read these her books and
Nicole:
it’s like, oh, this herb’s good for this, and blah, blah, blah.
Nicole:
And it just seems so, like, simple of like, oh, chamomile is, like, good for this, blah,
Nicole:
blah.
Nicole:
And then you start working with people and
Nicole:
it’s like,
Nicole:
man, this is complicated.
Nicole:
And everyone is so different, especially when
Nicole:
you bring in all the neurodivergent stuff.
Nicole:
But, like, like, yeah, like, dose.
Nicole:
Really? Oh, yeah, sorry.
Nicole:
So I was talking about valerian.
Nicole:
So,
Nicole:
like, there is research that, like, in too much of a high dose,
Nicole:
it can trigger being,
Nicole:
like,
Nicole:
very kind of, like, excitatory for people.
Nicole:
And, like, this was measurements of.
Nicole:
Of the gaba, like, neurotransmitter,
Nicole:
but at a lower dose, it was, like, more sedating.
Nicole:
So it’s like, people think if I just keep taking more or a higher dose, that will knock
Nicole:
me out.
Nicole:
And actually it can be having, like, the
Nicole:
opposite effect.
Nicole:
So it’s like, always starting small and slow, like, and just building up someone’s own
Nicole:
personal tolerance.
Nicole:
Like, some people literally, sedative herbs,
Nicole:
like, won’t touch the sides for them.
Nicole:
And they know that about their bodies and
Nicole:
other people.
Nicole:
Yeah, they think that a herb won’t help,
Nicole:
but then they take, like, less of it.
Nicole:
Like, 10 drops of passion flower tincture and they’ll be ******* out, you know what I mean?
Nicole:
Or a little, like half a cup of skullcap tea will do the job.
Nicole:
Whereas,
Nicole:
you know, 10, 20 mil of skullcap tincture and they’re not, you know, I mean, me, that would
Nicole:
knock me out, but for someone else it just ******* wouldn’t.
Nicole:
So, yeah, we’re all very, very different.
Nicole:
Behind my valerian post, I was talking about prison and how,
Nicole:
like, you’d get these, like, rounds in the evening.
Nicole:
It was meant to be like the nighttime round, but it was like six o’ clock or.
Nicole:
And people would get like, knock.
Nicole:
Like people knock on the hatch and then they’d
Nicole:
give people meds and there was always like a prison officer, like a screw and like a nurse.
Nicole:
And often people would be getting meds that are prescribed for them, but sometimes people
Nicole:
would be like, pressing their buzzer, asking for the nurse.
Nicole:
And at that point, I don’t know if it’s the same these days, but you could, you could get
Nicole:
given these kind of mild,
Nicole:
like, calm sleeping tablets, like, as a kind of PRN of, like.
Nicole:
Oh, you know, they don’t need the doctor to, like, write it off, if that makes sense.
Nicole:
You can just be given these if you’re struggling, struggling to sleep, which, you
Nicole:
know, it’s hard for people to sleep in prison.
Nicole:
And they’d always do a round with these calms and, you know, you can hear every noise in
Nicole:
that place at night time.
Nicole:
So you’d hear people be given these sleeping meds and like, just like clockwork, like, a
Nicole:
bunch of them would just settle down and they were already kind of knocked out with these
Nicole:
meds.
Nicole:
Like, not proper knocked out, but just kind of, you know, like, gently,
Nicole:
like, they would help with sleep, basically.
Nicole:
And I described in the post, like, there would always be like, a werewolf.
Nicole:
So there’d always be like a couple of people or one person that would have these calms arms
Nicole:
and that’ll be it.
Nicole:
They’re like bouncing off the walls, they’re shouting, they’re banging, they’re buzzing the
Nicole:
buzzer for people.
Nicole:
And, like,
Nicole:
I would.
Nicole:
That would, you know, do my head in.
Nicole:
And then it wasn’t until I was like, you know, studying herbalism in much more depth that I
Nicole:
realised, like, it’s the valerian.
Nicole:
Like, it’s the valerian in those comms tablets that is triggering agitation in some people.
Nicole:
I mean, there’s all sorts of, like,
Nicole:
you know, mental health stuff and distress in prison.
Nicole:
Like, it might just not be the tablets, but,
Nicole:
yeah, I Think valerian could be like a sneaky culprit.
Nicole:
And what I love about valerian is that like, everyone is a little bit different.
Nicole:
So I find it did help me get to sleep,
Nicole:
but my sort of nightmares were like, so horrific and like hyper vivid.
Nicole:
And maybe they wouldn’t be now that I’ve like recovered a lot.
Nicole:
And, you know, I’ve been out of prison for years now, so maybe if I took valerian, it
Nicole:
wouldn’t be so bad.
Nicole:
But I think those experiences like, freaked me out for a long time.
Nicole:
Whereas other people, they take valerian and like, yeah, they feel calmer, they feel good,
Nicole:
they feel relieved, they can sleep.
Nicole:
It helps, you know, like, especially with
Nicole:
Ukraine herbal solidarity, like we distributed thousands of valerian tinctures and people
Nicole:
just had that relationship with valerian where it settled their nerves,
Nicole:
it helped calm them down.
Nicole:
So yeah, like, it’s a wonderful ******* plant.
Nicole:
But yeah, for some people it can just excite them and even make them just like agitated and
Nicole:
aggressive.
Nicole:
So this is what I mean by paradoxical relation
Nicole:
of paradoxical effects is each herb will affect people differently.
Nicole:
And it does herbalist head in because we’re taught this equals that and it’s just not
Nicole:
true.
Nicole:
Like, it’s just not true in real life.
Nicole:
So I like to support people one to one with an approach that like, like we’re experimenting a
Nicole:
little bit in the sense of like,
Nicole:
I can give one blend to someone that is incredibly soothing to their nervous system
Nicole:
and,
Nicole:
you know, relieve anxiety, prevent panic attacks.
Nicole:
And for someone else, it will just make them want to sleep all day and make them feel
Nicole:
depressed because they’re so tired because it’s too sedating.
Nicole:
So everyone is different.
Nicole:
Okay, so the other safety thing I wanted to talk about is like combining sedative herbs.
Nicole:
So I think when people buy like herbal sleeping tablet type, like, you know,
Nicole:
a sleepy tea blend or a sleepy formula, like sometimes I won’t say if they’re lucky, but
Nicole:
like, sometimes that mix will work for them.
Nicole:
You know, like these sleepy teas that you can
Nicole:
buy that often have like valerian and lavender and a bit of chamomile.
Nicole:
Like that might really work for someone and that’s awesome if it does, like, keep going.
Nicole:
But like I said, for someone else, there might be something in there that’s like stimulating
Nicole:
them.
Nicole:
So with sedatives especially, like, I like to
Nicole:
work with them one herb at a time.
Nicole:
So it will be a case of like, okay, let’s try working with Skullcap because it’s got these
Nicole:
amazing like nerve tonic properties.
Nicole:
Like, in addition to its kind of hypnotic
Nicole:
nature.
Nicole:
And if that’s not like, really helping shift someone’s sleep pattern, you know, with all
Nicole:
the other things I’ve talked about in the previous episodes, like nutrition,
Nicole:
inflammation, blah, blah, blah,
Nicole:
like, if that’s not working, I might then try, like, passion flower, like, as a glycerite or
Nicole:
a tincture or something, if alcohol’s safe for that person.
Nicole:
So it’s like,
Nicole:
you know, and maybe if that’s not working, we might try.
Nicole:
Try wild lettuce.
Nicole:
And, you know, like I said, it’s a bit
Nicole:
experimental, but around sleep and sedation, because these herbs are so potentially strong,
Nicole:
I think trying them one by one is really important because we can a clock which ones
Nicole:
might not be effective,
Nicole:
and we can also kind of like, like, yeah, gauge like a dosage strategy.
Nicole:
Whereas if you kind of just like whack a sleep tonic at someone with like, six different
Nicole:
herbs in if that’s not effective for them, like, you’re just guessing then of which.
Nicole:
Which herb in that mix could be having the opposite effect that we want.
Nicole:
So.
Nicole:
And you know, because these herbs have, like, strong actions on the body around the nervous
Nicole:
system,
Nicole:
like,
Nicole:
I just think you can risk, like, too much of a good thing in terms of too much sedation or
Nicole:
kind of like contradictory actions like neurotransmitters and stuff.
Nicole:
So I don’t know, maybe I’m too cautious, but I just like to work with my sedatives, like,
Nicole:
separately, unless someone has a really strong relationship with that plant and can really
Nicole:
differentiate actions.
Nicole:
But, like, the more variables we get in the kind of, like,
Nicole:
more at risk we are of.
Nicole:
I don’t want to say things going wrong, but the more at risk we are of, like, then being
Nicole:
unable to untangle what’s causing what, does that make sense?
Nicole:
Like, where the risks are high in terms of sedation.
Nicole:
All right.
Nicole:
And then the other thing I wanted to talk
Nicole:
about with sedation is less, like, physiological and more kind of like trauma
Nicole:
awareness.
Nicole:
So I have shared this on, like, several podcasts before, and I talk about it in the
Nicole:
PTSD course as well.
Nicole:
But, like,
Nicole:
sedation is often, like, a very triggering feeling for people and, yeah, I guess content
Nicole:
warning.
Nicole:
I’m gonna speak about, like, medical trauma
Nicole:
and sexual assault here.
Nicole:
So if you need to, like, sc.
Nicole:
Skip ahead, then, yeah, you can do that now.
Nicole:
So. Right. So there’s.
Nicole:
There’s a few different layers to this.
Nicole:
So one is just, like, basic lack of familiarity with a rest and digest
Nicole:
parasympathetic state.
Nicole:
So for the Folks who are just like gnarly childhood, loads of chronic stress, **** all
Nicole:
time to feel safe,
Nicole:
supported, relaxed.
Nicole:
Just like their absolute familiarity in their
Nicole:
body and in their life is like fight or flight, right?
Nicole:
And we just continuously kind of like attract and swim in situations that just are ongoingly
Nicole:
stressful.
Nicole:
And it’s kind of like water off a duck’s back because it’s just beautifully familiar for the
Nicole:
nervous system, you know, so.
Nicole:
Which is a tragedy, right, because that shouldn’t be the baseline.
Nicole:
But often when someone has that background, and I’m saying that from personal experience
Nicole:
because that like sympathetic parasympathetic rest and digest time is unfamiliar.
Nicole:
We need to sort of like titrate towards that so it can’t be a case of like, you are full
Nicole:
speed ahead, head triggered all the time.
Nicole:
And then you take these strong sedatives and
Nicole:
you just feel peaceful and at ease, like, because often that state just feels more
Nicole:
terrifying because a people that are like super fight or flighty often need like a kind
Nicole:
of strong locus of control.
Nicole:
And when they feel sedated, they will like not feel in control, which can feel terrifying.
Nicole:
So there’s that aspect,
Nicole:
but there is obviously this like,
Nicole:
sorry, I’m bouncing around.
Nicole:
But basically if someone’s kind of like tempo
Nicole:
is that rest or digest state is wildly unfamiliar, then let’s like ease in, right?
Nicole:
Let’s go in with the lemon balm and the chamomile and kind of try and just like gently
Nicole:
reduce that activation 5, 10% so that there’s like a new baseline.
Nicole:
And then when they feel ready, we can have more like, like sleepy hypnotic type herbs.
Nicole:
Because, yeah, just kind of like going full guns with a strong tea might be too much for
Nicole:
them.
Nicole:
I do know that people reach for sedative
Nicole:
things for this desired effect, but for me, I find that people reach for sedatives not as a
Nicole:
like,
Nicole:
oh, I want to access parasympathetic and let my food digest.
Nicole:
It’s more like I want to ******* block out all of my feelings by getting like paralytic drunk
Nicole:
or taking ******* smack or do you know what I mean?
Nicole:
Like, it’s more of a like hardcore do not want to feel.
Nicole:
It’s definitely not like I want to feel calm and rested.
Nicole:
Does that make sense?
Nicole:
Okay, so there’s that element of that sedation feeling just way too strong and unfamiliar for
Nicole:
lots of people.
Nicole:
And then there’s the other reality that like many, many people have experienced trauma in a
Nicole:
sedated,
Nicole:
like, altered state of conscious.
Nicole:
Altered state of consciousness.
Nicole:
If that makes sense.
Nicole:
So.
Nicole:
Oh, grim. Content warning.
Nicole:
But I was,
Nicole:
yeah, sexually assaulted.
Nicole:
I find it hard to say the rape word, even though it was rape.
Nicole:
But basically I was, like, extremely off my head on drugs and alcohol and was telling this
Nicole:
person to stop, and they didn’t, and that kept going.
Nicole:
And it’s, like, a large reason why I don’t drink or go to festivals and stuff, because
Nicole:
that stuff’s just, like, really triggering for me.
Nicole:
But, like,
Nicole:
when people have experienced,
Nicole:
like, traumatic violations to their body, like, in that,
Nicole:
like, state of sedation, like, they’ve been drugged or they were, like, extremely drunk,
Nicole:
like,
Nicole:
that’s just.
Nicole:
Yeah. Then having, like, a strong herb that,
Nicole:
like, mimics that feeling of, like, I am out of control of my body and I cannot get out of
Nicole:
this situation.
Nicole:
Like, I can’t physically push this person off because I’m just, like, ******* knocked out.
Nicole:
And often people go through these experiences, like, without knowing that they’ve gone
Nicole:
through them.
Nicole:
Does that make sense?
Nicole:
So, like, oh, my God. This harrowing, like, stuff that’s come out of France, like, I’m
Nicole:
sorry, I. I can’t remember their specific names, but, like, the guy who would, like,
Nicole:
basically drug his wife and then get men from the village to have sex with her and film it,
Nicole:
and she had no idea about it for,
Nicole:
like, decades.
Nicole:
And then when he died.
Nicole:
Died.
Nicole:
Is he dead?
Nicole:
I’m not sorry.
Nicole:
I’m being really inaccurate.
Nicole:
But she looked.
Nicole:
She found these videos basically in photographs and stuff.
Nicole:
And then, you know, it’s been this, like, huge court case and stuff.
Nicole:
And it’s, like,
Nicole:
horrific, but it’s like,
Nicole:
not everyone is aware of what’s happening to them in different states.
Nicole:
So I do think, like, just like, how a plant can bring back a beautiful memory, you know,
Nicole:
like, oh, this smell of lavender reminds me of my grandma’s sheets.
Nicole:
Or, like, whatever.
Nicole:
Like, I do think a herb that has a particular action, like, especially strong action on the
Nicole:
central nervous system, could,
Nicole:
you know,
Nicole:
without a doubt trigger a memory of being sedated and therefore out of control.
Nicole:
And it’s not just, like, sexual trauma or date rape or all of this ****, but also, like,
Nicole:
something that’s happened, like when someone’s in surgery or under anaesthetic, and maybe
Nicole:
that surgery has gone wrong and you don’t even know about it until afterwards.
Nicole:
Right.
Nicole:
Or you don’t consciously remember it, but
Nicole:
maybe the body remembers that feeling of being sedated and kind of losing control.
Nicole:
Or, you know, maybe you’ve been in a car accident and you’ve been knocked out, like,
Nicole:
all of these things are like different drivers of why a herbal effect might be affecting us
Nicole:
in different ways.
Nicole:
Like more than we realise.
Nicole:
So, like, I have like a section on my intake
Nicole:
form where people are very welcome to share,
Nicole:
you know,
Nicole:
nervous system stuff, trauma stuff, whatever.
Nicole:
Like they’re like experiences of emotional
Nicole:
distress recently or whatever.
Nicole:
But like, I will, you know, it’s like a whole
Nicole:
skill doing that consultation without,
Nicole:
excuse me, trying to open certain boxes that are like unnecessary to open.
Nicole:
Do you know what I mean? Like in a kind of herbal consultation, maybe
Nicole:
if someone was like in therapy or whatever and were like intentionally wanting to go there.
Nicole:
But clients obviously do also kind of volunteer information if they feel like it’s
Nicole:
important or they just, just, you know,
Nicole:
are a human being that wants to be seen here, recognised, validated,
Nicole:
you know, held like by a practitioner who’s supporting them.
Nicole:
So people will, you know, tell you about this sort of stuff that is,
Nicole:
they’ve gone through.
Nicole:
So, you know, sometimes that kind of glimpse
Nicole:
into history might make me think, right, okay, this isn’t, this isn’t a safe like, hub for
Nicole:
them.
Nicole:
Do you know what I mean?
Nicole:
So,
Nicole:
yeah, sorry, I know that was really horrible.
Nicole:
And I’m gonna put a content warning in the
Nicole:
show notes because that was like quite graphic.
Nicole:
But I guess,
Nicole:
yeah, I just want to say, like, herbal medicine isn’t a game.
Nicole:
Like, it’s,
Nicole:
you know, it’s not like,
Nicole:
just take this herb and because it’s a herb, it’s natural and it won’t harm you.
Nicole:
Like, there’s so many potential consequences to plants and you know, connect that in with
Nicole:
like trauma and nervous system stuff and yeah, it can feel very overwhelming.
Nicole:
I don’t want to like frighten people because like I said, like, all our are,
Nicole:
all our herbs are different, all our bodies are different.
Nicole:
You know, like,
Nicole:
I have.
Nicole:
I’m going to do an episode about nightmares
Nicole:
but like,
Nicole:
you know, someone might take a sedative herb and fall into a deep sleep and maybe they
Nicole:
haven’t been accessing that deeper quality of sleep that they need, but it might actually
Nicole:
give the body that opportunity to start processing traumatic memories, in which case
Nicole:
they might wake up feeling more kind of triggered.
Nicole:
Like, and I think, you know, there’s a whole ball game around psychoactive properties and
Nicole:
trauma healing.
Nicole:
And like,
Nicole:
again, this is why I get frustrated.
Nicole:
Ah. With herbalists that just blanket give out
Nicole:
herbs.
Nicole:
Like for example, like Mugwort.
Nicole:
I’ve shared about Mugwort on Instagram and like, many people have commented the same.
Nicole:
But like, for me,
Nicole:
you know, I’M bouncing out prison, like reading these books,
Nicole:
like, about herbalism and stuff.
Nicole:
And very like generic kind of like, take this
Nicole:
hub for this kind of book.
Nicole:
And like,
Nicole:
you know, mugwort is held up as this, like, beautiful, like, dreaming herb and oh, you
Nicole:
know, like witches did all this stuff and da da da, da da.
Nicole:
And it’s like I take mugwar and I’m having like some of like the worst nightmares and
Nicole:
flashbacks of my existence.
Nicole:
Absolutely terrified.
Nicole:
Like, no herbal practitioner or support person
Nicole:
there to help me process this level of, like, flooding of trauma.
Nicole:
And I know some people that are a bit macho will just be like, well, that’s the herb, like
Nicole:
helping you heal, blah, blah, blah.
Nicole:
But it’s like,
Nicole:
Jesus Christ, give a girl some warning.
Nicole:
Do you know what I mean?
Nicole:
Like, I think that’s why,
Nicole:
yeah, we need to think about,
Nicole:
like, the effects of these plants on people with like, potentially more of a trauma
Nicole:
history.
Nicole:
And I hate to say it, but I think a lot of
Nicole:
herbalists from more like middle class backgrounds, I know that’s like, definitely
Nicole:
not the context of plant medicines globally, but, like, especially in the uk.
Nicole:
A lot of herbal practitioners that I’ve met will admit that that’s their, you know, their
Nicole:
kind of background.
Nicole:
They might not have been through like, levels
Nicole:
of trauma that someone who’s experienced, like state violence or who’s been in active
Nicole:
addiction or grown up with childhood trauma and been in and out of care.
Nicole:
Like, they might not have seen the things that other people have seen.
Nicole:
And therefore for them, like, they can, you know,
Nicole:
take some mugwort and have a, like, you know,
Nicole:
interesting dream about a deer and a fox.
Nicole:
Do you know what I mean?
Nicole:
But for other people, it’s like,
Nicole:
if you’ve seen like the violence like, of this world, like, okay, I know there’s like a
Nicole:
context there, but like, say, just like the harrowing stuff I saw in prison in terms of
Nicole:
people being like, attacked and all the sexual violence and all this and the self harm, the
Nicole:
suicides,
Nicole:
like all of these things that have triggered, like, very intense, like, intrusive thoughts
Nicole:
and nightmares for a really long time, which I’m relieved to be free from,
Nicole:
like these beautiful psychoactive herbs that are ******* amazing and have so much potential
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to bring us healing and integration.
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Like, they can literally trigger PTSD episodes
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in people.
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So we do need some ******* caution around this
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stuff.
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And I’m sorry to get on my high horse course, but.
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Yeah, sorry, not sorry.
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Herbs are powerful.
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That’s why we work with them.
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So let’s just know the nuances and the safety
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concerns before just like blase dispensing them around.
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Woo. Okay, mic drop.
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Okay, I’m not gonna drop my mic, but yeah,
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okay, I’m gonna stop talking now.
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I feel like that was, that was a lot of stuff
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there.
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Oh, I hope I haven’t triggered the into everyone.
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I’m really sorry.
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I will.
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I do you know what? I’m gonna go back and re record the
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introduction to just flag some of the stuff I talk about.
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But yeah, thank you for listening.
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If you’re like, I want to practice herbalism
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differently and I want to like know my before I’m taking herbs and I’m giving herbs to
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people, especially people in your communities that have gone through a lot of traumatic it.
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Please join the Herbalism, PTSD and traumatic stress course.
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Like, it is the course that I wanted as a baby herbalist of like,
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you know, like, I’ve just learned the hard way with lots of these herbs of like, has this
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herb, like worsened ptsd? Has it worsened nightmares?
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Has it helped with this?
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Like,
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you know, like, I don’t want people to get texts from their friends being like, I took
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skullcap and it was horrendous for me.
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Like, I want us to kind of prevent harm while
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also always being aware that herbs are pretty unpredictable and everyone is different,
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different person to person.
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But yeah, if you care about like practising safely while still working with these amazing
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herbs and understanding what they can offer and what the risks are,
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then like, yeah, please join the Herbalism, PTSD and traumatic stress course.
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Don’t wait till next year.
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Like, it is available now very soon.
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It’s this private podcast feed so you can just, you know, listen to it over the winter,
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next spring, be like all in it.
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But yeah, like, I just think, like, it is an
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amazing resource for anyone interested, interested in herbalism for themselves who are
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practising herbalism in their communities, practising clinically.
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Like, I do think you will find a lot of value there.
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So like I said, no one turned away for lack of funds.
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You can whack in a small donation.
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You can pay the full whack if you like.
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Thank you very much.
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But yeah, you can just join whatever is kind of accessible for you.
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And yeah, please, please don’t hesitate if you’re interested.
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Okay. Thanks so much for listening.
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Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.
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You can find the transcript, the links, all the resources from the
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[email protected] podcast.
